Search
(print friendly)

Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back


CreativeCOW presents Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back -- Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate Editorial


HD Shots & Cuts
Las Vegas Nevada USA

©2012 CreativeCOW.net. All rights reserved.


After 30 years of editing on both PCs and Macs, Tom Daigon shares the long journey of using both, and why he's switching back to the PC.



So, I'm sitting here in the edit bay with my trusty 2008 Mac Pro tucked under the edit desk, staring at Adobe CS6 on the monitors. I feel like I'm at a crossroads and need to make a decision soon. I don't really want things to change, but decisions made by Apple and developments made by Adobe are pushing me in that direction. I'm sure lots of folks can relate to how I feel.

PCs and Macs have inhabited my edit bays over my career of 30 years. I didn't always get to influence the choice of which system to get. That was tasked to Engineering with input from the Senior Editor most of the time, which meant that I didn't have to stress about it… unlike today.


Flashback many years…

The CMX system I started editing with was based on the PDP-11 computer. Editing by numbers was the interface. I worked in a large expensive facility, so I never worried about computers there. Problems? Just call Engineering. They picked the system and fixed it, as well.

The beta release of Avid Media Composer was my first Mac experience. The whole system was magic to me. Editing pictures, on a beautiful, friendly computer. Again, engineering / upper management was there for any decisions and messes.

The Age of Digital was experienced in an all-digital bay from Abekas. It was amazing technology with minimal generation loss, and layering with pre-read on D2 machines. The computers were proprietary and I didn't choose the system, but I got to use it everyday and holler for help when it broke.

When the facility had a chance to be a beta site for Avid DS, I was very excited. This software reportedly did it all -- and was powered by a Silicon Graphics beast of a computer. Another PC. I worked with it for 10 years. The facility I edited at had downsized, so this time I was more responsible for maintenance of the computer. It was challenging, but necessary, so I got used to taking care of the PC's needs.

Then HD came along and changed everything. The maintenance fees for upgrading the DS were exorbitant, so eventually the facility switched to the up and comer FCP. I lamented the "death" of the DS at our facility and decided to build a bay at home to accelerate my learning of this new technology. Once again I got reacquainted with Apple. But this was the first editing computer to be bought with my money. Getting the Mac Pro was my choice, my decision. And all responsibility for fixing things fell on my shoulders, which was something I had learned to do with the PC, so it was no big deal. I have enjoyed my Mac Pro for four years. I also enjoyed the amazing innovation of the Apple's Pro Apps, until it all came crashing down that night at the Super Meet in Vegas when FCP X was announced. I tried it, I hated it and even more, I hated Apple for screwing such a good thing up with FCP 7. I did my share of ranting and raving along with many others.

I was initially at a loss as to what to do. The alternatives were not appealing. A fellow editor mentioned Adobe. My only memory of Premiere was when someone came into my DS edit bay and asked me if I used Premiere. I'm usually very sensitive to others feelings, but I started laughing and said I wouldn't be caught dead editing with it. I've been an After Effects diehard user for many years, and owning the Suite allowed me to sneak a peak at CS5. It was quite a nice surprise. This motivated me to get involved in forums and beta testing it since I was very excited about its potential. And my 2008 Mac Pro performed like a real champ with my newly adopted NLE. It still does. Which brings us back to the present. What the hell do I do from this point forward?

Well, I don't like or trust Apple to make decisions that serve my needs. Their current behavior portends that there will most likely be no more Mac Pro and the lack of any announcement at WWDC seems to support that. Just like their behavior telegraphed the death of Pro Apps in the past. Damn, I really like that computer. If they came out with a Mac Pro I don't think that would change anything for me. I have learned how there are some downsides to how OSX utilizes hyper threading when running CS6 apps, as opposed to Windows. The wider choice of hardware at cheaper prices is also a big consideration. Of course, this would be based on the assumption that Apple had changed its stance to professionals like me. And it's pretty clear that ain't going to happen.

So, the obvious choice moving forward is a computer that can provide the juice that Adobe apps and the Mercury Engine will thrive on. Since I am on my own now, I need the kind of computer that can handle anything -- from AVCHD to RED, and everything in between and can give After Effects the power it needs. So even if we ignore my distain for Apple, iMacs just don't have the brute strength I need to deal with the unknowns that folks in my situation have to deal with.

Over my career I learned not only the skills of editing, but also the skill of keeping my computers happy, be it Mac or PC. And that experience makes working with either one comfortable to me. So I realized switching once again back to the PC would be a positive step.

So, as I fondly stare at my old Apple friend, I realize its time to be proactive and start researching all the details necessary to consider when buying a PC. It's a jungle of choices (both a good and a scary thing). I want to make an informed choice on all the components that are crucial in supercharging the Adobe Mercury Playback Engine.

So, it's time to get reacquainted with a new, old friend while creating that PC.

When it comes to tasks like this, thank goodness for Google and the research it excels at on the web. In the past, I might have just gone with the computer that had the most persuasive ads on TV or magazines. But now, worlds of information are at my fingertips.

So the first step is to decide where to get it. There are big box stores that are well promoted (HP & Dell). And there are stores that are widely used in professional circles (Boxx & HP). Then there are turn-key operations that have a presence on the Adobe forums I frequent often (ADK & Video Guys). And others that friends suggested (Puget & Rain). Yikes, which vender do I choose? Which processors / memory / storage / graphics cards do I need? OK, this is giving me a headache.

At this point I realize I have to get a system that does what I need. So the first step is determining what exactly that is. Since I am on my own, I need a system that can handle just about anything that is thrown at me. The means all codecs (h.264 to Epic), all show forms (short and long), straight cutting or lots of motion graphics, fast encoding, timelines that playback with minimal rendering. To sum up: speed and power.

After lots of research, I know what I want. I want a desktop. Since I need to be prepared for the unknown, I want the Sandy Bridge Dual Xeon EP system. Now if you don't plan on editing RED / Epic footage you can save mucho bucks by getting a Sandy Bridge E system which is a real powerhouse. I want the fastest CPU with the most cores for encoding and other functions. So I went with the E5-2687W 3.1 chips. Here are some other Sandy Bridge EP choices you can consider if you want the dual Xeons. Remember, Sandy Bridge E costs a lot less and rival the Xeon's ability, except when handling large files like R3D, etc.





I also want the most CUDA power I can get for those Premiere Pro functions that use it and for AE's new raytracing mode. So I went with the NVIDIA Maximus configurations (Quadro 4000 & Tesla 2075). I already had a great raid array (EVO 2 from Maxx Digital) and the AJA Kona 3. The PC allows you lots of choice for hardware as illustrated by this list.





And finally, I want lots of ram for AE. I am getting 64GB. Matching the amount of ram to cores in your processor is very important. It makes sure the CPUs and ram work efficiently together.

So now that I know what the system needs to do, and some of the components necessary to do it, it is time to pick the folks I want to make it for me. The process of interactively configuring a machine with a rep from each of the companies helped me get a feel for them. Most were very helpful. Some knew about video. Some were even combative. They did not make the cut.

As I searched for a place to buy the system, I immediately found out I didn't like the experience I had when interacting with pre-sales support and pricing for Dell and HP. I had questions about whether certain graphic & video card configurations would work in systems I was considering and they didn't seem to know. The lack of intelligent personal service was annoying in these big box companies. And I felt there was a limited flexibility in the choices I had. That was also a big turn off. HP seemed like they wanted to help, but never followed thru on things they said they would check into for me. The prices of Dell, HP and Boxx were also a bit inflated when compared to some of the smaller turnkey system companies I checked out.

I also checked out some "mom and pop" companies, and found that many were gamer oriented, so I didn't care for the components they used.

I found one company that was ideal, I thought... The main tech support guy for video was knowledgeable and helpful. I was pretty sold on using them until the owner got very aggressive and combative as we talked about what I wanted for the system. It was with great regret that I decided to look elsewhere.

The company that impressed me the most was Puget Systems -- especially their enthusiasm and listening skills. I could tell from their web site that they were efficient and organized. I spoke at great length with them about specific editing needs and thoughts I had about the configuration. They spent whatever time was needed and would research and report back to me in a timely manner. Truthfully, I felt I could trust them. Then I went to their website. Wow! Check out the following series of images. The first is my order for a PC. I already know what I wanted, but they were ready with answers to any questions or requests I had. For example, I wanted the NVIDIA Maximus configuration to speed up certain processes in CS6. It turns out they were one of the few venders certified to offer these products. They had suggestions about power supplies that would support the cards. I also wanted the Dell Ultrasharp 27" monitor, which they did not normally offer. Not a problem, they got it as promised.





The second bunch of images are the Status Updates, Benchmarks and Pictures pages. Just look at the detailed info. From a checklist to show what is being done to your system, to infrared photos for evaluating the cooling systems, to benchmarks and bios settings. Talk about efficient and organized!









So there you are. This is how I've handled leaving a valued friend behind and rekindling old relationships. The PC realm still worries me. I want to keep the system off the Internet to avoid virus/worms/malware. But I do need to authorize my software and download updates. Clients bringing me stuff for edits could give me infected files. Norton is ill advised by most edit system manufacturers, but how then do I protect my system? These issues still trouble me, but I'm sure they will be resolved over time.

I hope this info can help ease your transition in some small way.

So its time to tell Apple "Hit the road Mac...." while greeting my new system "Hello PC, my old friend."






  View 42 Comment(s)

 
Reply   Like  
Share on Facebook
Comments

Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Jon Howard
Awesome article. Super helpful and encouraging. Thanks very much for sharing. I haven't read all the comments but I have a couple suggestions regarding protecting your computer from viruses. I'm a finishing artist in LA and work on a Mac Pro, but I maintain a PC for my wife and talk shop with my assistant, who is a big gamer and at home has a PC that he built from scratch.

For virus/malware scanning you can get Windows Network Essentials from the Microsoft website. It's a free and excellent protection service that doesn't get nearly the attention it deserves. Very unobtrusive as far as the performance of the computer and, so far, very effective at keeping it clean.

The other software I've been using is CC Cleaner, which is only about $30 I think. It analyzes your registry, caches, and your PC in general and can do various levels of cleaning to remove anything malevolent.

Lastly, the chance of getting a nasty piece of software installed on your lovely new machine is greatly reduced by not lingering on web pages. Quit your browser when you're not using it. But no doubt that's old news to you.

I figure you probably already know all of this info, but wanted to mention it just in case. Looking forward to hearing how CS6 performs on your new beastie!

Jon

"If you can describe what it is, that's not it."
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Tom Daigon
Epilogue-
After some very large, unexpected financial surprises I am having to postpone the actual purchase of the computer system. Unfortunately broken water mains and damaged roofs seem to trump my desire to buy a new computer. So at this point that will go on the back burner. I apologize not being able to complete the process I started with this article. Hopefully it can happen in the future.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
Mac Pro 3,1
8 core
10.7.3
Nvidia Quadro 4000
24 gigs ram
Maxx Digital / Areca 8tb. raid
Kona 3
+1
@Tom Daigon
by Jiggy Gaton
oh man sorry to hear. but i really understand, I am opting for solar panels instead of a new mac this fall, as without those and complete grid independence, I won't have power this coming winter to run an office anyway... we are looking at 4-6 hours a day of line... not enough to charge racks of batteries...

Phoenix Studios Nepal: A small A/V Production House in Kathmandu.
Epilogue 2
by Tom Daigon
I thought I would touch base about my state of affairs. Ive started (with the help of my brother) to scrape $ together for the PC purchase after dealing with the unexpected home repairs.

The other day I had a bad experience with the PSU on my Mac Pro that has really made me sit down and think. It started acting weird in the middle of an edit session, but at that point I didn't know what it was. I had to call Apple for $60 for them to try to interpret my symptoms. The next day , after figuring out the problem, I had to start running around looking for an Apple store to drag the machine to. And they had to have the part in stock. Then I had to wait a few days until they fixed it! That killed the deadline on the project real good.

What this made me realize is I need a situation where repair folks familiar with my machine will come to me in a timely fashion. They need to know the machine and be able to swop out parts. I can't be sending the machine out for repairs.
Im afraid this requirement is going to change my original plans of getting a custom machine.

I haven't made any final decisions, but to be honest I am now considering getting the HP Z820. I can get the kind of immediate repair response that I need. Its a tough decision but this recent trauma really made an impact on my awareness of this situation.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
Mac Pro 3,1
8 core
10.7.3
Nvidia Quadro 4000
24 gigs ram
Maxx Digital / Areca 8tb. raid
Kona 3
HP's next day service
by Tim Wilson
"...but to be honest I am now considering getting the HP Z820. I can get the kind of immediate repair response that I need. Its a tough decision but this recent trauma really made an impact on my awareness of this situation."

Tom, I'm so sorry to hear about your unexpected "surprises." I hope you're dry and in good repair soon.

I'm not making any comments about Puget, ProMAX, Dell or anyone else, but since you mention HP, their warranty and service support is unmatched. This actually come up on another thread. Here's the post:

the hp 3yr warranty is amazing, had a motherboard blow on a z800 we use on o.b's (so it gets kicked around a fair bit)next day on site repair no quibble, no charge. Similarly a machine bought in the uk but being used in brazil was replced next day after a power surge on an o.b. just read out the model no and ref no. and they come worldwide...all of this included in the purchase price.


http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/33279

There's a lot to be said for that kind of safety net.

The home stuff is obviously more pressing, and you have my best wishes for sorting it out soon.

Best,
Tim
@Tim Wilson
by Tom Daigon
Thanks for the positive input.

Yeah, its been a crappy several weeks. But the water main and the roof are done. This last experience with the Mac Pro really caught me by surprise and emphasized just how vulnerable I am to computer disasters.

The Z820 not only seems to be a powerful machine, their repair support looks like it might help me sleep better at night. Onward and upward!

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
Mac Pro 3,1
8 core
10.7.3
Nvidia Quadro 4000
24 gigs ram
Maxx Digital / Areca 8tb. raid
Kona 3
@Tom Daigon
by Jiggy Gaton
So u gunna get the red version?
The system hardware, which is configured with dual Xeon processors (a total of 16 cores), 32GB of RAM, Nvidia Quadro 5000 graphics and a 10,000rpm SAS boot drive, is also liquid-cooled, which means it will run quiet even when running at its peak. Prices for the base model start from US$10,000.
we are in the middle of a discussion over in Appleland about the future of the iMac and Mac Pro, and things don't sound so good to me. I'm kinda glad I just retired.

@ Tim: OT: do you know any Lion Server experts, or have a forum for that? I just got two new mac min servers and have to set those up this week for a pal. This is what my retirement is starting to look like :)

Phoenix Studios Nepal: A small A/V Production House in Kathmandu.
@Jiggy Gaton
by Tom Daigon
No Jiggy. I dont need all the Red hardware. It will be ...

2- 2687w 3.1 processors (liquid cooled)
64GB. ram
Nvidia GTX 570
4 - 500GB drives (OS,Clone.Cache.Renders)
Blu-ray burner
HP 30" ZR30w monitor
Caldigit HD Pro 2 Raid

Yeah, you picked a good time to retire!

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
Mac Pro 3,1
8 core
10.7.3
Nvidia Quadro 4000
24 gigs ram
Maxx Digital / Areca 8tb. raid
Kona 3
@Tom Daigon
by Jiggy Gaton
well, best of luck with that... sounds grand. starting to think all i will need soon is an iPad for the lazy life i'm getting into...

Phoenix Studios Nepal: A small A/V Production House in Kathmandu.
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Greg Burton
yes windows is a terrible os, win7 tiny bit better.

TIP: for you when upgrading to windows vista to Win7, do not rely on the win7 drivers to install correctly, best to format and do a clean install of win7, not an upgrade. If upgrade is your only choice, you may need to install every driver for the system separately,as Vista leaves fragments.
@Greg Burton
by Jiggy Gaton Jiggy Gaton
ha! but today's problem is that with this hp pavilion, it dunna even support win7! no drivers. what a joke... how lazy can one company be... and my poor client is stuck in Visa Ultimate Hell... after working on that for an hour, i now remember why I would never use Windoze again - outside of my parallels for mac VM version!

Phoenix Studios Nepal: A small A/V Production House in Kathmandu.
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Gary Huff
[Greg Burton] "yes windows is a terrible os, win7 tiny bit better."

Why, explicitly, is Windows a "terrible" OS? Can you put it in words without resorting to the typical propaganda and be absolutely specific from your experience?
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Jiggy Gaton
[Gary Huff] "Why, explicitly, is Windows a "terrible" OS? Can you put it in words without resorting to the typical propaganda and be absolutely specific from your experience?"

I don't think it's a terrible os per se, it's the entire idea that's whacked. divorcing hardware from the os, or in other words, tacking on a generic OS to specialized hardware. It's never been a good idea, even though it sold billions. The advantage of Apple is that the OS and filesystem are more aligned with the hardware (ie. boot the OS from any external drive on any hardware) and in general, the filesystem is less prone to problems. Case in point, today I have a HP Pavilion "Entertainment" PC that is so convoluted in Vista, there is no way out... with the OS being hosed by the user despite all of that "protection." The mfg of the hardware (HP) decided not to provide win7 drivers for this model, so you can't upgrade from Vista. Whaaaa?

Phoenix Studios Nepal: A small A/V Production House in Kathmandu.
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Gary Huff
[Jiggy Gaton] "The advantage of Apple is that the OS and filesystem are more aligned with the hardware (ie. boot the OS from any external drive on any hardware)"

You'll need to explain this more explicitly because I've booted Windows from different hard drives before, including externals.

[Jiggy Gaton] "and in general, the filesystem is less prone to problems."

You'll also need to explain what you mean by this. I've never lost any data to a "filesystem" problem outside of a drive going bad (with NTFS).

[Jiggy Gaton] "today I have a HP Pavilion "Entertainment" PC that is so convoluted in Vista, there is no way out"

What do you mean by "convoluted"? What is there no way out of?

[Jiggy Gaton] "with the OS being hosed by the user despite all of that "protection.""

I've definitely come across Macs that run poorly and with errors because of user interference (i.e. installing way too much stuff that loads automatically). It's hard to do on a Mac because they don't come with extra stuff like most Windows installs do when you by a pre-configured unit. And that's a plus for Mac.

[Jiggy Gaton] "The mfg of the hardware (HP) decided not to provide win7 drivers for this model, so you can't upgrade from Vista. Whaaaa?"

Have you even tried to install Windows 7 on this system? HP may not provide drivers because it will work with Windows 7 without having to install any drivers, which is the case with a lot of older hardware. What is the problem with this scenario?
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Jiggy Gaton
Don't really want to get into a PC vs. Apple war here, but...
[Gary Huff] "You'll need to explain this more explicitly because I've booted Windows from different hard drives before, including externals."
U can't take a complete Windows system w/programs on an external hardrive and say go to any PC you own: desktop, laptop, whatever & boot and use. The hardware differences are such it can't be done, and until Win8 (USB2GO) there has not even been an attempt to make work. I do this everyday in the Apple ecosystem.
[Gary Huff] "You'll also need to explain what you mean by this. I've never lost any data to a "filesystem" problem outside of a drive going bad (with NTFS)."
MBR, Logical vs. not, Active (maybe), Fat32, the list goes on...
[Gary Huff] "What do you mean by "convoluted"? What is there no way out of?"
Clearly stated on the HP website, there is no upgraded drivers for Win7, that means things like the trackpad & camera & wireless will never work there.
[Gary Huff] " It's hard to do on a Mac because they don't come with extra stuff like most Windows installs do when you by a pre-configured unit. And that's a plus for Mac."
Like crazy mfg-specific recovery partitions that never seem to work...ha!
[Gary Huff] "Have you even tried to install Windows 7 on this system? HP may not provide drivers because it will work with Windows 7 without having to install any drivers, which is the case with a lot of older hardware. What is the problem with this scenario?"
It dunna work, just wasted a day of my life trying. There is no way with this box. Hate them! okay, back to work :)

Phoenix Studios Nepal: A small A/V Production House in Kathmandu.
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Gary Huff
[Jiggy Gaton] "U can't take a complete Windows system w/programs on an external hardrive and say go to any PC you own: desktop, laptop, whatever & boot and use. The hardware differences are such it can't be done, and until Win8 (USB2GO) there has not even been an attempt to make work. I do this everyday in the Apple ecosystem."

How many times do you do this, say, on a per monthly basis?

[Jiggy Gaton] "MBR, Logical vs. not, Active (maybe), Fat32, the list goes on..."

Hey, you can look up terms! And FAT32 doesn't even come into play except for small-sized USB thumb drives and such so I have no idea why you'd mention that and not NTFS...or were you not aware that the primary file system under Windows 7 was NTFS?
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Jiggy Gaton
[Gary Huff] "How many times do you do this, say, on a per monthly basis?"
All day every day... but i'm beta testing an OS / w apps right now...
[Gary Huff] "And FAT32 doesn't even come into play except for small-sized USB thumb drives "
Huh? i have clients that bring me full-sized fat32 drives ... i like, as they can be shared between mac and pc natively. but nothing wrong with NTFS... the point i am making is that i have a lot less problems with the macs that i own than the pcs that i own and try to fix for clients. but that vista machine i spoke of earlier is cruising now... after several days of work and over 300 updates, with hours removing all the crud put on by HP, mostly to sell crap.
cheers!

Phoenix Studios Nepal: A small A/V Production House in Kathmandu.
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Gary Huff
[Jiggy Gaton] " but that vista machine i spoke of earlier is cruising now... after several days of work and over 300 updates, with hours removing all the crud put on by HP, mostly to sell crap."

I always format any Windows-based laptop and re-install the bare OS, but that's acceptable to me because that extra crap help keeps the price down (plus, it's usually not hard to re-install with Windows 7).

How can you legitimately beta test an OS with apps running it off a USB key? And that is a benefit with Macs, but it's also the curse, because the limited hardware designs means you have to go with what's provided for you.
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Jiggy Gaton
[Gary Huff] "How can you legitimately beta test an OS with apps running it off a USB key? "

Sure thing! but it's not a usb key, it's an entire drive / system / dataset... the hardware don't care where the drive is located, inside the machine or outside the machine. That's the point and the beauty, but ur right, you are locked into the air / mb / mbp / iMac / mp line of computers. No problem with that for me, as I like all that shiny stuff.

I think WIN8 will also have this feature, we have to wait and see.

On hardware: the new MBP retina display is worrisome however: how could a company in the 2010s glue batteries to the inside of the case and solder ram to the board like in the old days? that's a bit distressing to think about... but my macs are all 2008 vintage and still running strong with the latest OS, no problems whatsoever (well, maybe a few nits). I could never get 2-3 years outta a sony or HP back in the day. The Sony laptops always fell apart after 18 months or so. This HP HP Pavilion dx6500 I just got working is solid I suppose, but it's a monster at 6.5 lbs + of fingerprints and plastic - and obsolete as far as upgrading the OS goes...

We live in an imperfect world, that's for sure... cheers!

Phoenix Studios Nepal: A small A/V Production House in Kathmandu.
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Gary Huff
[Jiggy Gaton] "macs are all 2008 vintage and still running strong with the latest OS, no problems whatsoever (well, maybe a few nits)."

So is the PC I built myself back in 2006. It's still running great (though, obviously, some of the components have been updated, so it's a Core 2 Quad currently, but the disc drives and case are the same, and the motherboard I bought from a CompUSA during its going-out-of-business sale, if that helps date it).

I had a HP laptop from 2006-2009 that ran fine, even upgraded the RAM and CPU (yes, the CPU) in it. After that was a VAIO F-series laptop that I cut a Red 4k feature on. And then I went to my MacBook to have compatibility with FCP and FW800 ports. The best laptop I've ever owned, but at the same time it's not like I had a row of crappy laptops.

But then, I'm pretty technically adept. I did come across a HP laptop that didn't want to upgrade to Windows 7, but I made that happen anyway. My next Windows-based laptop will be from a boutique seller as opposed to an HP/Sony/Dell (looking at Maingear at the moment).
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Ryan Patch
Hey Tom -

I'm interested - what is the difference between the pricier Xeon processors and the much cheaper Sandy Bridge processors? I know the price difference! You say that RED / EPIC footage is the back-breaker for Sandy Bridge? Could you explain?
@Ryan Patch
by Tom Daigon
Im more editor then computer geek, Ryan. I do know that cores and clock speed influence how the Mercury Playback Engine functions. And in Sandy Bridge EP there are 2 processors. But for a more in depth explanation on the difference between the 2 systems I suggest you contact Eric Bowen at the Adobe Hardware forum. He can give you a more scientific explanation.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
Mac Pro 3,1
8 core
10.7.3
Nvidia Quadro 4000
24 gigs ram
Maxx Digital / Areca 8tb. raid
Kona 3
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Walter Soyka
[Ryan Patch] " what is the difference between the pricier Xeon processors and the much cheaper Sandy Bridge processors?"

Xeons allow dual-processor configurations.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events
+1
@Ryan Patch (Xeon vs. Sandy Bridge-E)
by Brett Nordquist
"what is the difference between the pricier Xeon processors and the much cheaper Sandy Bridge processors?"

Tom and Walter mentioned the ability to run dual Xeons off one board. Also, for tasks that benefit from running more cores, the Xeons offer processors with 4, 6 and 8 cores per CPU, whereas the Sandy Bridge-E processors currently come in 4 and 6 core configurations.

Building a workstation with say, dual Intel Xeon E5-2670, would result in 16 cores and 32 threads, where you'd max out with 6 cores/12 threads going with the i7 3930k based workstation.

Other benefits from running the Xeon chips include higher memory capacity and the ability to run ECC Registered RAM for improved reliability. And, at least on the higher end, the Xeons usually include more smart cache. There are other minor differences as well, but these are a few of the big ones.

Regards,

Brett Nordquist
Puget Systems
+1
@Brett Nordquist
by Tom Daigon
Hi Brett. Nice to see you here. :D

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
Mac Pro 3,1
8 core
10.7.3
Nvidia Quadro 4000
24 gigs ram
Maxx Digital / Areca 8tb. raid
Kona 3
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Tom Daigon
Thanks Jiggy. I have had to deal with drivers a lot on the Mac as well. Nvidia graphics cards and Kona 3 hardware all require that stuff, so not a big deal. And with some support from Puget I think it will be just fine.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
Mac Pro 3,1
8 core
10.7.3
Nvidia Quadro 4000
24 gigs ram
Maxx Digital / Areca 8tb. raid
Kona 3
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Ray Tragesser
Hi Tom,
Really good article, I enjoyed it.
FYI it seems a new Mac Pro has been confirmed for 2013 by Tim Cook.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/06/12/tim_cook_confirms_updated_mac...

Please post some benchmarks and observations from your new machine. It looks really nice.
Ray T
@Ray Tragesser
by Tom Daigon
Im glad you enjoyed it Ray. Yes. I saw that posting today. It reminds me of a witty post I saw on Twitter today.

"Next release (of FCP) will be awesome." -Steve Jobs 4/2010 "We're working on something great for later next year." -Tim Cook 6/2012

I guess I just have had my fill of Apple and am ready to move on.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
Mac Pro 3,1
8 core
10.7.3
Nvidia Quadro 4000
24 gigs ram
Maxx Digital / Areca 8tb. raid
Kona 3
+1
@Tom Daigon
by walter biscardi
"Next release (of FCP) will be awesome." -Steve Jobs 4/2010 "We're working on something great for later next year." -Tim Cook 6/2012

Glad to see you read my witty Twitter feed, I rather liked that too when I came up with it as it describes the current situation with the Mac Pro quite well. Apple is bumbling the Mac Pro right now much like they did with the FCP X roll out. Even Tim Cook's supposed "confirmation that a new Mac Pro is coming out in 2013" isn't really. He never actually says the machine is a Mac Pro and will come out in 2013, hence my witty Twitter post.

I'm certainly done with the Mac Pro as it stands today and would HIGHLY discourage anyone from buying the "new" Mac Pros, well heck even Apple removed the "new" sticker off the Store Page. And while our Dell Precision is going into a 12 week documentary edit next week, I'm far from done with Apple. Well first off we could never just completely abandon Apple since we have so many legacy FCP projects in house. Sure we'll convert a bunch of them to XMLs so Premiere Pro can read them, but not every single project.

As I recently written in my blogs, the iMac is a very viable editing workstation, particularly for a shop like mine where we currently have 5 edit suites running, set up for 9. And shortly we will have the need for up to 8 workstations per series for reality series. That's a lot of workstations and to put a full blown, "big iron" set up for each editor would be costly and quite honestly a waste.

I've been cutting at home with my 2 year old 27" iMac on commercial spots, documentary roughs and heavy After Effects work for series and I have to say, that darn thing works like a champ, even with just a FW800 8TB RAID connected to it. It's even better when it's at the office connected to our Small Tree ethernet based SAN.

So because of that experience, we're still going to go iMac for most of our edit suites and we'll have a couple of "big iron" workstations for heavy rendering and compression. That way we get the best of both worlds. I only spend about $16,000 for 5 workstations and can spend about $5 or $6k for one big workstation to do heavy lifting.

Right now, I'm only looking PC for big iron. We already have the Dell in house and I'm just about done testing the ProMax One. (review forthcoming here on the Cow) But as I've said multiple times during this past year, I will never allow myself to be bound to just one manufacturer again. So that means I don't plan to put all my eggs into the PC basket either and go all big PC workstations.

Apple is definitely correct that the days of the "big iron" workstations is coming to a close for all but a few specialized applications and those specialized applications will require a premium price tag eventually. Small, faster, cheaper with Thunderbolt (for now) is certainly what the future looks like and while rendering will always be slower with these machines, they still perform quite well for creatives.

Best of luck with the new machine.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.

Blog Twitter Facebook
@walter biscardi
by Tom Daigon
Yes Walter, I feel your Tweet sums up how a lot of folks feel about Apple and how it impacts decisions they now need to make because of its current product releases . And I can see why it can still play a role in your facility. I may have strong residual feelings about the decisions Apple has made, but I still feel folks should use whatever works for them.Be it Apple or PC. I will keep my beloved Mac Pro for web,email and other duties that I might be a little concerned about the PC doing. I want to keep it off the web as much as possible. So for me there is a happy medium as well. I think Ive reached a point of Zen balance thats is best described as ...Whatever Works.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
Mac Pro 3,1
8 core
10.7.3
Nvidia Quadro 4000
24 gigs ram
Maxx Digital / Areca 8tb. raid
Kona 3
@Ray Tragesser
by walter biscardi
If you read what Tim Cook actually said, he did not say a Mac Pro is coming next year. He said "we're working on something great for later next year."

Everyone is reading this as "A New Mac Pro is coming next year." It might be, it might not be. Hence my original tweet comparing Steve Job's "Awesome FCP" to Cook's "Something Great."

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.

Blog Twitter Facebook
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Jiggy Gaton Jiggy Gaton
Nice review and story... best of luck with going back to PC. From a hardware point of view, I agree 100% it would be a great thing to do, especially after yesterday's disappointing "update" to the MP. However, once you leave a CS product, you are gunna have to deal with Win7 or Win8 and all that brings with it... /system/drivers and all the rest :(

Phoenix Studios Nepal: A small A/V Production House in Kathmandu.
@Jiggy Gaton Jiggy Gaton
by Greg Burton
"once you leave a CS product"
Jiggy Adobe is probably the most aggressive company about listening to it's Professional users, They have exponentially advanced their Software for Editors and Artists alike.

And if Adobe slows or stops making features we want...Well lets just say by then Tom Daigon's Awesome PC Workstation would be obsolete anyway.

My 2 Cents
@Greg Burton
by Jiggy Gaton Jiggy Gaton
What I meant to convey is that if you stay in adobe, or some other app mfg environment like avid or whatever, PCs are fine. Once in the OS, omg. For example, I am trying to upgrade a monster of a laptop for a client today, a HP Pavilion dx6500 Notebook PC, from vista to win7, and forgettaboutit!!! perfectly decent hardware, but a snakepit of an OS...

Phoenix Studios Nepal: A small A/V Production House in Kathmandu.
Re: Hello PC: The Journey to Mac and Back
by Davee Schulte
In the article, he states that he doesn't trust that Apple cares about his needs. The reality is that every company will go in whatever direction brings the most profit. Apple has changed course because it sees the huge market in mobile devices and a relatively small pro market. Adobe has stuck with the pro market because that is its core product line and couldn't survive without it. It's silly to talk about whether a company cares about your needs or not. Every company makes products that appeal to a certain demographic or niche. If a company doesn't make a product that works for you, find one that does (that is the American Way, right?). But don't take it as a personal attack against pro users. Use whatever works and move on.
@Davee Schulte
by walter biscardi
I personally don't trust Apple with my career any longer because of the botched rollout of FCP X and supposedly making a software that the pros wanted. Then you come to find out that during testing, previews, etc.... all the pros they showed the software to said "this will never work the way you have it now, it needs......." pretty much everything that folks have been asking for since it came out. So from a software point of view, I have a hard time trusting that one company with my career because they are now squarely a consumer based company making money off of everything "i."

From a hardware standpoint, Apple is definitely showing us where the future will be by essentially doing nothing with their towers because quite frankly, I agree with them, they will be dead sooner than later. Smaller towers with external products is where things will be going. If they do release a new Mac Pro next year I expect something along the lines of a tall Mac Mini with no internal cards and up to 4 independent Thunderbolt lanes.

It's a very good time to be platform agnostic and just use what works best for you. If you need a "Big Iron" system, no doubt PC is a better machine today so long as you don't run FCP X. If you want to go Apple, I personally think the 27" iMac is the best creative workstation going right now.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.

Blog Twitter Facebook
Re: @Davee Schulte
by Davee Schulte
I agree completely. My only point is that Adobe, Microsoft, Avid, etc. would abandon pro users in a heartbeat if they were they ones making billions on ipods and ipads. To me, its not personal. Its very obvious that Apple's definition of Pro is not the top 10% that need the highest end hardware and maximum compatibility with legacy systems. They're just following the money, like any good company should. As for us, we also need to vote with our dollars and use what works.
@Davee Schulte
by walter biscardi
Very well spoken Davee and let's not forget that Avid did abandon the Mac Platform at one time already. Wasn't enough money in it and the machines were woefully underpowered at the time.

Gotta do what's right for your company and never trust a single vendor to do it all.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.

Blog Twitter Facebook
@Jiggy Gaton Jiggy Gaton
by walter biscardi
What's wrong with Windows 7? We've had a Dell Precision in our shop for about 3 months now I guess. Haven't had one issue with Windows 7 other than formatting a new drive. The thing has been running even better than our Mac Pros. So far drivers and performance has not been an issue and it's about to start a 12 week documentary edit on Monday.

In addition to Adobe, you can run Avid products on Windows as well.

Saying "well you have to run Mac or you have to run PC" just doesn't cut it anymore. You need to use what you need to use for your situation.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.

Blog Twitter Facebook
@walter biscardi
by Jiggy Gaton
I am using windows 7, and trying out 8... love it, but both instances are on a apple box :) I agree, you need to use what you need... in my early retirement, I am finding that I don't need much!!! perhaps a really big phone.

Phoenix Studios Nepal: A small A/V Production House in Kathmandu.
@Jiggy Gaton
by walter biscardi
Oh, running Windows 7 or 8 on a Mac Box is definitely going to be a different experience than running it on a PC. I thought I would try that at one time, but abandoned the thought because while I hear success stories in doing this, it seems you can create a lot of issues, even with multiple boot systems.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.

Blog Twitter Facebook
+1
@walter biscardi
by Jiggy Gaton
for what I do (mostly test software it seems) Parallels does fine. the boys in the studio don't use it that way as they need firewire support, so are always flipping to bootcamp. Win7 runs perfect there, from what I recall.

Phoenix Studios Nepal: A small A/V Production House in Kathmandu.
Advertisement
Creative COW Magazine is copyright 2006 - 2013 by Creative COW®. All rights are reserved.
No reprint rights are granted except to educational institutions such as universities, colleges,
art academies and other training academies. All other rights are expressly reserved.
[Top]